(Names and other words that could not be transcribed exactly are in italics. Unknown voices are referred to as ďmanĒ or ďwoman.Ē Comments, explanations, and additional names are in parentheses. There are several places where two or more people spoke at the same time and couldnít be transcribed.)
Jane Dudley: December 16, 1980, Alexander, Maine. This is the Christmas Coffee of the Alexander-Crawford Historical Society which is concluding its charter membership on December 31, 1980.
Jack Dudley: Our first order of business today will be history of the future.
Woman: Thatís right. The history of the future. Right.
Jane Dudley: The loudest voice off. Just as itís on there. This is very sensitive so you can just talk in your normal voice and it will be all right. But, if anyone were to come in the door and you say ďHello, Merry Christmas,Ē it will hear that rather than what weíre saying.
Hazel: So, will it hear me chew?
Jane Dudley: I donít know. Thatís very interesting, Hazel. (Few indistinct words.) That will be a historic - the first historical chew weíve recorded.
Woman: I want my false teeth in for that.
First Man: Whoís that Pliney?
Pliney Frost: Frankie, Frank Frost.
Man: Oh, thatís Frank.
Pliney Frost: That was taken about the time he graduated from high school.
Jane Dudley: And he lived in Calais.
Pliney Frost: The one back of that is his father, then his grandfather, and great grandfather.
Man: Well Wilsey (Stephen ďWilseyĒ Wilson Frost), we used to call him Wilsey. The younger Frank, he came from what - Massachusetts, New Hampshire? Originally came here, didnít he?
Pliney Frost: Frankie was born here as far as I know. He lived here from the time he was born until he went to high school and then he moved into Calais and he never did come back to Alexander to live.
Man: No, but, I mean, his father wasnít born here.
Pliney Frost: His father was born in Manchester, New Hampshire. But, his mother died - Wilkseyís mother died when Wilksey was very young and his father and the children came back to Alexander and stayed out there where John Weeks is living now with Harry Frost. Frankieís grandfather and Harry were brothers, you know. Their mother was still living at that time and they came back and lived there with them.
Man: Those are nice pictures.
(Both men talking at once, so that a few words canít be understood.)
Man: That one right there. (Few mumbled words)
Man: Itís nice to see old pictures with the name on the back. You run into so many of those pictures with no name on them.
Pliney Frost: Iíve got a whole bushel basket full of them at home that I donít know. But, that one there that you had in your left hand, he was born in 1815.
Pliney Frost: Machias, Maine.
Woman: Where was the first Frost home in Alexander? Was that the one up at Donaldís where it was burned or - - -
Pliney Frost: Oh no. The first one that I know about was on that place - on that same place where Weeks lived, but way back, almost to the back end of the lot there was a log house.
Woman: Thereís a cellar hole back there.
Pliney Frost: Well, itís about the same distance from that cellar hole back to the first building site as it is from that cellar hole to where the house is now.
Woman: Was there a road back there? Why would they put it way back there?
Pliney Frost: I believe the original planners of the town planned on the road being back there, then. The old McPheeterís house (few mumbled words) you know that house. Evidently they planned on coming straight down through because the old Strout house is way back, too. When they did build the road why they sheered off north (few more mumbled words) I thought.
Woman: If you had your house all planted you wouldnít want the road go off half mile up the - - - (few mumbled words)
Jane Dudley: Thatís whatís so strange about Breakneck, that they would build up there, the early people.
Other Woman: Itís better than having the road go through your house.
Woman: Thatís true. Thatís true.
Other Woman: That happened.
Jane Dudley: At one time was there a road that went - that was traveled (mumbled word) from Breakneck (few mumbled words) Did you ever know?
Pliney Frost: There was no road down there when they first came here as far as I know.
Jane Dudley: Thereís the road now that goes (mumbled word) of course itís been discontinued now almost, from Cooper right into Breakneck.
Pliney Frost: Yes, came right down over the hill, connected to (few mumbled words).
Woman: Maybe it was good soil.
(Noise - static sounds)
Man: I donít know why do people stick to any one particular place.
Woman: Something pretty up there.
Pliney Frost: Annaniah Bohanon settled up there - oh, I donít know. There again, (mumbled name) told me that was Bohanon property.
Woman: (few mumbled words) gravestone for my mother up there.
Jane Dudley: Could it possibly be that it was because the land was cleared by fire - maybe a natural fire?
Pliney Frost: Could-a-been. Nothing in the old newspaper clippings and whatever that I have that said anything about any fire that cleared.
Jane Dudley: Because they had to clear so much land, and they cleared that big field up there where Carleton used to have the blueberries, but you said the stone pile was - some of the farmers had to move it by manual moving it - over to pile up all those stones there so they could raise, what did you say - wheat, rye? Was it wheat?
Pliney Frost: Thatís what where Carleton owns the blueberry land was at one time owned by Graceís uncle.
Jane Dudley: Oh, they were the first Dudleyís up there, werenít they?
Pliney Frost: Donít know. I wouldnít think so, no.
Jane Dudley: We should go up there.
Pliney Frost: You mean on that place? I donít know. They might have been. They might have been, yes.
Woman: Have you ever heard of the McNallys?
Pliney Frost: Um-hum.
Jane Dudley: Now, they were settlers on Breakneck, too. What do you know about the McNallys? That name (few mumbled words)
Pliney Frost: Well, I can tell you who some of their descendants are. Possibly you might remember him, George McNally that was the cop in Calais at one time. You do, Jack. He was born there.
Jane Dudley: Oh, thatís interesting. George McNally was born there. He was judge in Calais when Jack and I - - -
Pliney Frost: Another one was May Brown, wife of George Brown. Somebody that certainly you ought to remember is Ralph that worked in the A&P store for years - was her son, was - - -
Jane Dudley: Was he the manager?
Pliney Frost: No, he always worked behind the coffee counter. I donít know, they - when he first went to work for the A&P Company, they had four stores in Calais - I think, didnít they - there was three but Iím pretty sure there were four.
Man: I think there were four.
Pliney Frost: But, he worked in the one that was on Washington Street and he could have been the manager there, I donít know. Then when they combined them in a super market why they took the employees they could use, or wanted to use, and took them down there. He, well as long as they ground their own coffee right there in the A&P, thatís where he worked, behind the coffee counter.
Woman: They called it the Great A&P Tea Company then, didnít they.
Pliney Frost: It still is, isnít it?
Jane Dudley: Do you remember the day that we were on Breakneck.
Woman: The A&P
Jane Dudley: And, we stopped to see - now, this would be the second trip, David, Jack and someone (mumbled words). First, we stopped at a place where there was a foundation. First we stopped at the place where we thought that the old school - because the foundation was different than where the homes were. Then the last foundation that we looked at Carleton didnít seem to know anything about it. Well, since then somebody told me that that was the old McNulty place. Do we have a name for it?
Pliney Frost: The McNally place probably is on your 1887 atlas isnít it?
Jane Dudley: 1887 atlas. Do you want to look, Jack, and see if we have a McNulty on it?
Other Woman: Is it McNally or McNulty? Or are you talking about two separate names?
Jane Dudley: McNally. M-c-N-a-l-l-y.
Other Woman: Thereís a McNally Tavern in Ellsworth - right in the old center of town. Probably same family. (Voices talking in background that canít be understood - probably looking in atlas.) But, Iím hearing you say McNulty also.
Jane Dudley: McNally.
Other Woman: Itís McNally.
Pliney Frost: Well, if you can believe Annaniah Bohanon the school house was at Burnt Barn Hill. (Voices talking in the background that canít be understood.)
Woman: Probably not right on top of Breakneck.
Pliney Frost: According to Harold Dwelley Burnt Barn Hill is that hill that you go up after you go by Elbridgeís - you go up through and go up over the hill and then you dip down over and come to that bog that is on your left there, you know. If I understood Harold correctly to say that the foundation of where the school house was - was in on - in on the side of the road there where Everett (Dwelley) owns - on Everettís property.
Jane Dudley: On Everettís side?
Pliney Frost: On Everettís side, on Everettís property. If I understood Harold correctly.
Jane Dudley: The foundation that we thought was the old school was just before we came to the road.
Woman: Maybe you should look at this (someoneís name).
Pliney Frost: Yes, J. McNally. Now, the question you asked me about the Carlow - that was the McNally place.
Jane Dudley: The Carlow place wasnít the McNally place.
(Both people speaking at once - canít be understood.)
Pliney Frost: The McNally place according to this atlas.
Jane Dudley: (canít be understood)
Other Woman: Which came first.
Pliney Frost: If you go out from Elbridgeís here, top of the hill, turn right and go over just a little ways youíll find a foundation. (Womanís voice talking at the same time - canít be understood.)
Other Woman: Right here. Thereís a foundation right here.
Pliney Frost: Yes, thatís it right there.
Other Woman: This is what I gathered.
Jane Dudley: Now, thereís another foundation over here, and a well over here where we can go, that those boys suffocated in. There was this foundation here and then there was another one over here because we had to go - You remember this one Ellen and Ellie because - -
Other Woman: Yes.
Jane Dudley: We saw that one the day we went up there together, and the time that Carleton went with us, he took us to these foundations which we missed on the other trip.
Pliney Frost: The next one there - this is J. Granger - the Granger estate.
Jane Dudley: I have that one there.
Pliney Frost: That would be the Brownís and Carterís and McLeanís if I remember correctly.
Jane Dudley: Yes, I have those.
Woman: This is one - one (few mumbled words)
Pliney Frost: Now, wait a minute. Apparently - this is a line going through there.
Man: Yes, a boundary line.
Jane Dudley: This map is interesting because itís just the same as I have here for the foundations. Good, thatís good.
Woman: He was right, wasnít he.
Jane Dudley: Yes.
(Woman talking in background)
Jane Dudley: Yes, they are. I could copy this when I get home and - the Granger Estate was where the Brown place was and the - -
Pliney Frost: Yes, Brown, McLean, Carter (Name) Berry.
Jane Dudley: At one time we owned the - was it the - oh, the Foley place was in there, too.
Pliney Frost: Well, evidently - was that 1881?
Jane Dudley: Thatís good.
Pliney Frost: Oh, what did I close that up for?
Woman: Do you want me to open it?
Woman: Oh, leave that on the desk. We can see it over here better.
Woman: Iím having a good drawing made up of this Jane.
Jane Dudley: Oh, good, Cleta, but you want to make sure - Thatís good.
Pliney Frost: You ought to get a copy of that sheet that sheís got right there and that would be much better. (Woman talking in background) I mean Iím not running your drawing, but - -
Jane Dudley: Well, Dr. McNally sent us a copy of that, too.
Woman: See I have mine here (people talking together) I have mine here, the Brown place. See. And, Frank owned that at one time.
Pliney Frost: Yes.
Woman: And, then Blaine owns right across the road from there, the Foley place which was in the Granger Estate.
Jane Dudley: And, whatís that cute little book you have there.
Pliney Frost: Directory of Alexander for the Year 1895.
Woman: Oh-h-h, isnít that wonderful.
Pliney Frost: 1895.
Woman: How much were dress fabrics there? Are they priced? Oh, no, thatís just the list of what they had. Muslin underwear. (Women talking in background)
Pliney Frost: One or two of them have prices attached to them, I believe.
Woman: You could find anything in that book, couldnít you.
Woman: Hereís some things - oh no, Chase statement of parsonage debt. (Woman in background.)
Pliney Frost: Put out by the minister of the Methodist Church. (Women talking in background)
Woman: Anybody want some plum pudding with hard sauce. (Several people talking at once.)
Woman: Pliney, have you read any records at all to Springdale, because a research foundation paper, but here are the questions? (Several people talking at once - may be parts of two womenís conversation.)
Pliney Frost: I donít recall Springdale, but there was a family by the name of Spring. How many, I donít know.
Woman: Now, where was Spring Hill? Spring Hill is up by (few mumbled words).
Pliney Frost: You go from Dorothyís down to the foot of the hill, down by Carleís place. (Few mumbled words)
Woman: Iíve got the wrong, Iíve got the wrong (Two women talking at the same time.)
Pliney Frost: Iím not absolutely certain of it, but I believe that William Spring lived about where Landryís house is now. Thereís an old cellar there. It might be when he built his new house he built right on the old cellar. Iím not sure, but I remember when I was quite young that there was an old house attached to George Berryís barn and I assume that was the old Spring house, but Iím not sure. Iím just assuming it.
Woman: Youíve never heard it called Springdale. (Several voices talking at the same time.) What is the name of the hill? I should know it, but right now I canít think of the name of the hill by your place.
Pliney Frost: Mine?
Woman: Your hill. (Several voices talking at the same time.) Have you heard of Laneís Hill?
Pliney Frost: What?
Woman: Laneís Hill.
Pliney Frost: No. I never knew of the hill being tacked to any of the names. (Few mumbled words.)
Woman: In Augusta?
Woman: Thereís a map there that mentions the early settlers of Alexander in Laneís Hill.
Pliney Frost: It could have been a name that they applied to the - -
Woman: I wondered why that hill is called Laneís Hill. (Several women talking at the same time.)
Pliney Frost: I donít know. That brook there, a matter - well just west of the motel, Stagecoach Motel, is Laneís Brook. (Women talking in the background) Iíve never seen any record of them but I assume there must have been. (Women talking in the background.)
Woman: Thatís my hill.
Pliney Frost: Hereís a list of the people that lived on Breakneck in 1895. Carolw, Aaron, Ellen, Mary, and Maud.
Woman: (Women talking in background.) I want a copy. Iíll take your book if youíll loan it to me sometime.
Pliney Frost: The next one is Carter, James, Amie, William, Lawrence, and Sarah. (Women talking in background.) Keene, Robert, Ella and Clara.
Woman: Now, they would be related to Edith Hatfield.
Pliney Frost: Yes.
Woman: Edith Hatfield was a Keene before - - (Women talking in background.)
Pliney Frost: Edith Hatfield is related to me.
Woman: Oh, is she?
Pliney Frost: Yes, closer than youíd think. Vining, Frederick, Edith, Bertha, Flora. Now, Flora was Vernon Cousinís wife. You remember Vernon.
Woman: Now, Flora and Edith were cousins, werenít they. Flora Perkins and Edith were own cousins.
Pliney Frost: Edithís mother was a Keene, was she? Well, those are the ones that lived on Breakneck.
Woman: I know Iíve talked with Bill Hatfield and Bill Hatfield said that his family tree - -
Other Woman: Unless theyíre Feeneys.
Pliney Frost: Luke and Martha Stephenson lived where the house burnt - where - - -
Woman: Colin Feeneyís wife made it. I made the hard sauce. (Several voices talking at the same time.
Man: I know that she died.
Woman: Now, Luke Stephenson, do you have anything on Luke? (Several voices talking at the same time.)
Pliney Frost: That Stephenson place? That was the old homestead there, that was Stephensonís.
Woman: Where Hatfieldís, was that Stephensonís?
Pliney Frost: That was Stephensonís, yes.
Woman: The Hatfield place?
Other Woman: I never knew that. I know it was the Dwelly place but I never knew it was the - - (Voices talking in the background)
(People discussing food and library in the background)
Woman: Iíve eaten a piece of chocolate cake.
Woman: Pliney, I should have come to you before I had that book section made up because you could have given me so much more information.
Pliney Frost: Luke Stephenson was married the 29th day of June 1850.
Woman: Luke Stephensonís place was where Doris Flood is now, but not the house.
Pliney Frost: No, not the house. The house burned. You must have been here when the house burned, Lydia?
Pliney Frost: The gentleman performing the marriage ceremony was William Spring.
Woman: Where did this information come from?
Pliney Frost: Newspaper clippings.
Woman: And, youíve been keeping them all these years?
Pliney Frost: Well, four generations of us have been doing it.
Woman: I think thatís wonderful.
Other Woman: Yes, indeed. (Women talking in the background)
Woman: Your father, your grandfather, your great grandfather. (Women talking in background)
Pliney Frost: No, the women always except me. My great grandmother started out keeping those things back - oh golly, I wouldnít know how long ago, but I can - well, yes - 1870. Iíll go back that far.
Woman: He said the women in his family kept the records until his generation. Good for him for breaking the sexual mold. Annaniah.
Pliney Frost: That was printed in 1870.
Woman: Now, thereís a great name - Annaniah. Right out of the Old Testament.
Other Woman: Laura suggested that we make a collection of all the names, you know, that - of the one area, because in different areas people chose different names. Iíve come across a couple that Iíve never heard anywhere else, and I think theyíre really nice. I like them.
Pliney Frost: Thereís one right there in that piece that Ellen is reading now that Iíve never heard before.
Ellen: Do you want me to read it?
Pliney Frost: I donít care. You can if you want to.
Ellen: The first trees - this is from a 1935 Calais Advertiser?
Pliney Frost: Yes, the original piece was dated 1870, wasnít it - The Old Time News - 1870, or wasnít it? Iím pretty sure that - -
Ellen: But, Bohanon. Are there any more Bohanons around?
Pliney Frost: This Addie Bohanon was the granddaughter of Annaniah dated 1870, Alexander, Maine, and this is a 1935 reprint.
Other Woman: Annaniah.
Ellen: Annaniah is A, double n, a - n - i - a - h. (Other woman starts to spell in background.) Actually Iím not sure thereís two - I think itís one n. It should be A- n - a - n - i - a - h.
Pliney Frost: Bailey is - (people talking in background) Dr. Bailey uses two nís.
Woman: Dr. Bailey uses two nís.
Ellen: Oh, he does. The newspaper has one and you have two.
Pliney Frost: The Bohanon part - the Bohanon part of it with two nís and some of it they change it the other way.
Woman: Oh, I was talking about Annaniah.
Ellen: The first trees felled and the first clearing made in Township Number 16, now Alexander, was in the summer of 1810 by William Connie and Solomon Perkins on the farm now occupied by John Gooch. During the year 1811 Annaniah Bohanon, William D. Crockett, Eliab, Eee-lee-ab, Spring - is that the way you pronounce that, or E-lye-ab? (The name really was Elias. There was a misprint in the newspaper article.)
Pliney Frost: You take it any way you want to.
Ellen: And others settled in different parts of the township. The first white woman who came into the plantation was Mrs. Samuel Cottle in the year 1813, the same year four families came from Machias and settled on Breakneck Hill. (Several people talking at once.)
Woman: That you should say that because Aubrey has stuck to it that they came from Machias.
Other Woman: Could we, could I type that up and - -
Woman: Aubrey has stuck to it that those settlers came to Alexander from Machias.
Pliney Frost: You can if you want to.
Pliney Frost: I donít have any monopoly on that.
Jane Dudley: Would you mind leaving it behind and Iíll see that you get it back tomorrow. I wouldnít blame you if you - -
Woman: You may have to snowshoe out - -
Pliney Frost: As long as you promise me that it doesnít go the same way my Washington County Name book went.
Jane Dudley: I wouldnít blame you if (few mumbled words) This thing (few mumbled words) I wouldnít let you do it. I wouldnít let anyone do it, if I had it.
Woman: The first schools were taught in 1822. One in a log house built for the purpose near Mr. Scribnerís. (Talking in the background) Mr. Barstow being teacher. (Background talking) The other in a log house on Burnt Barn Hill. (Background talking) Where is Burnt Barn Hill?
Pliney Frost: You know where L. B. Carter lives?
Pliney Frost: Right across the road from there.
Woman: Is it still called Burnt Barn Hill?
Pliney Frost: Right this side of his house, thereís a road going up to where Burnt Barn Hill is. Itís up there - what - half a mile from the road.
Jane Dudley: Red Barn Hill.
Woman: No, Burnt Barn.
Pliney Frost: (Several voices talking at once) B - u - r Plantation.
Woman: The first child born was Freeman T. Fenlason.
Other Woman: Thatís surprising. They told us (mumbled words)
Woman: And, the first death was Mrs. Mary Young.
Other Woman: We werenít sure he was going to be the first child actually. You know, the first child on record, but this sounds like he really was the first child.
Woman: Right here, Annaniah is back with two nís, the way you have it. Then thereís an obituary of Abbie Ella Bohanon. Is that the same year, 1935, do you think?
Pliney Frost: This is the granddaughter of Annaniah.
Jane Dudley: What year was that?
Woman: These clippings, are they both 1935?
Pliney Frost: Oh, no. I donít know when Abbie died. I donít think so.
Woman: Thereís no - -
Pliney Frost: No date on it, I donít think.
Woman: But the age of the paper looks approximately the same. (Indistinct background talking)
Pliney Frost: I donít know what year she died, but it was probably in the 1930s or 40s, 30s more likely.
Woman: Well, Wheelerís Garage was still existing in Milltown, Maine, and Dr. Trueís Elixir. (Indistinct background talking) In Pennsylvania, this is a note on the bottom of the page, the opposite page. In Pennsylvania it is contrary by law to discharge a gun, cannon, revolver or other explosive weapon at a wedding. (Indistinct background talking)
Pliney Frost: Dr. Bailey spells the Bohanon name, B - o - h - a - n - n - o - n.
Woman: Two nís in Bohanon, oh. (Background talking)
Pliney Frost: In one place, and then he speaks about his brother and he only used one n. So, apparently some of them used two and some used one.
Woman: They were very free with name spellings, werenít they.
Pliney Frost: I noticed in this book he used the name spelling as the people had used it,instead of deciding which one was correct.
Jane Dudley: Pliney, are you named after the Latin poet?
Pliney Frost: Yes.
Woman: Was that something that your parents did - or your brothers and sisters have names like that?
Pliney Frost: No, I donít know why they gave it to me.
Other Woman: They must have studied - they must have studied or something (several voices talking at once.)
Pliney Frost: I have a distant relative - -
Pliney Frost: I have a distant relative whoís name was Pliney, too. Youíve probably heard of him, Pliney Gray.
Woman: Yes, yes I have.
Woman: Is he your generation or were you named after him?
Pliney Frost: I wasnít named after him, I donít think. I think it was the poet that they picked the name from, but - -
Woman: Isnít that wonderful?
Pliney Frost: It could have been anyway. (Several people talking at once.)
Jane Dudley: (Indistinct words) John Brownís wife Electra - Alegra)
Jane Dudley: Named after The Childrenís Hour, she was the one with the laughing face. Between the dark and the daylight when the night is beginning to -
Jane Dudley: She was the one coming down the staircase with the laughing face.
Woman: Alegra with the laughing - -
Jane Dudley: Apparently her parents or her mother liked that name so much, she even named her middle name Longfellow.
Woman: After the poet who wrote the poem. Oh-h-h!
Jane Dudley: You would assume Longfellow was a family name, but it isnít.
Woman: Alegra Longfellow -
Jane Dudley: Brown.
Other Woman: I have Freeman Putnam Fenlason born on June 14, 1814. Thatís copied from Mrs. Fenlasonís records. (Few indistinct words)
Jane Dudley: Is that the same date that - -
Other Woman: Does that go along with yours (indistinct word)
Pliney Frost: First child born was Freeman P. Fenlason. Donít say what date. First death was Mrs. Mary Young in 1814, so itís in the same paragraph -
Jane Dudley: That was nine years before - eleven years before the town of Alexander was incorporated.
Pliney Frost: Un-hum. This ainít (indistinct words) Annaniah Bohanon.
Jane Dudley: Now, you know where Annaniah Bohanon is buried.
Pliney Frost: Yes.
Jane Dudley: On what was the McPheters place.
Pliney Frost: On what was the Bohanon place, later the McPheters place.
Jane Dudley: Was it?
Pliney Frost: But, he goes on to say, whoever wrote this piece and I donít know who it was. The foregoing was communicated to the writer by Mr. Annaniah Bohanon now about 85 years old who commenced on the farm where he now lives in 1811.
Jane Dudley: Now 1811, now that could be before Alexander - Breakneck Mountain was settled, couldnít it be? (Several indistinct words) According to the records in Augusta (Several indistinct words)
Pliney Frost: Hereís what it says.
Jane Dudley: Alexander, the first settlers settled up around the Four Corner area - -
Pliney Frost: (Talking at the same time Jane Dudley was still speaking) was named Township Number 16, now Alexander, was in the summer of 1810 by William Conney and Solomon Perkins. Now it donít say about building a house at all. On the farm now occupied by John Gooch.
Jane Dudley: On Breakneck. Thatís Breakneck.
Pliney Frost: During the year 1811 Annaniah Bohanon, William E. Crockett, and E-l-i-a-b, (Pliney was referring to the same typo in the article - name was really Elias.) however you pronounce it, Spring - - (TAPE TURNED OVER AND SOME CONVERSATION LOST)
Jane Dudley: I wondered why they didnít have any records of Breakneck. I was thinking maybe it was because it was before that time but they called - they called it Laneville, thatís why I asked you about it. And, Percy was one of the main - main there - - What was the date on that clipping on - -
Pliney Frost: Originally 1870s. It was republished in 1935.
Jane Dudley: 1870, republished in?
Pliney Frost: 1935. What month, I donít know.
Jane Dudley: (Indistinct words) Thatís interesting really because Aubrey (Dwelley) has always felt that because Machias was a seaport that many of the settlers had to come from Machias,
Woman: They had to come from the water.
Jane Dudley: And come up with Baring. And, I think it had to be a natural influx.
Woman: They probably came up the river, donít you think? The way William Bingham explored his huge holding.
Pliney Frost: Iíll read this paragraph from Baileyís ďEarly Baileyville.Ē ďIn Calais after he came from St. Andrews, New Brunswick in 1786, Nathaniel Bailey apparently lived as a squatter about one mile south of town center in Calais. Nearby were the farms of Daniel Bohanon, William Hill, and the Nobles. Daniel Hill, a former member of Rogers Rangers, was the first white settler in Calais in 1779. He had come from Machias where he was among the first group of 15 settlers to arrive in Captain Buckís boat in 1763. John Bohanon, a brother of Daniel Bohanon, had settled in the center of Calais and he later was to become the first settler in nearby Alexander.Ē Now apparently John Bohanon was Annaniahís father.
Woman: What are you reading from, Pliney?
Pliney Frost: Baileyís History of Early Baileyville.
Woman: Oh, Baileyville, yes.
Jane Dudley: I wish I had come across it with you before we had that other meeting.
Pliney Frost: Why?
Jane Dudley: Well, I would have had more information than I had in that other book, that little history book (indistinct words) that was published. It had quite a bit of information but there are some things that need to be corrected and this book gave the - had the corrections - given this book sooner. (Other woman talking but canít be understood) Because now, according to that record, Bohanons were the first ones in Alexander, right?
Pliney Frost: It says it flatly there, John Bohanon, a brother of Daniel Bohanon settled in Calais and later was to become the first settler in nearby Alexander. Thatís the first time that I ever noticed it put down flatly that he was the first settler.
Jane Dudley: Perhaps Harold Bohanon was the last male with the name.
Pliney Frost: Yes, living in Alexander. (Indistinct womenís voices) Haroldís got a brother lives in Woodland.
Jane Dudley: He has another brother?
Pliney Frost: Lives in Woodland.
Jane Dudley: Now, whoís that?
Jack Dudley: Asher.
Pliney Frost: Asher. He has a brother - had a brother that got killed in a town in Belgium during the second World War. He had several children.
Woman: His first name is Asher?
Pliney Frost: A - s - h - e - r. (Several womenís voices at once) Theyíre Asherís boys.
Jane Dudley: Thatís like a - Asherís boys, thatís like the name of something, isnít it.
Woman: Do you know who Rogerís Rangers were?
Pliney Frost: No. Iíve heard of them before but I donít know - -
Jane Dudley: A - s - h - e - r, or is there?
Pliney Frost: Yes.
Jack Dudley: A - s - h - e - r.
Woman: Have you ever heard of Rogers Rangers, Jack?
Jack Dudley: Oh yes, Iíve read about them.
Woman: Is that a Revolutionary group like the Green Mountain Boys, or something?
Jack Dudley: Seems like it was.
Woman: Or was it French and Indian Wars?
Jack Dudley: French and Indian Wars. Yes, I think probably about then.
Jane Dudley: At the time they were looking for the Northwest Passage?
Jack Dudley: Kenneth Roberts wrote it (indistinct words) in detail about it. (Several indistinct voices talking at the same time.)
Woman: The Northwest Passage.
Pliney Frost: Did you see that movie - did you see that movie, Northwest Passage? That was kind of interesting.
Woman: I read the book when I was a little girl.
Jack Dudley: Itís been so long since I read anything about his expedition it that I sort of (several indistinct words)
Woman: Rogers was?
Jack Dudley: (Several indistinct words.) I guess about two thirds of them never got back to civilization. They got lost or starved to death. He got back.
Pliney Frost: Near as I can decipher it from reading that article that Annaniah was born in about 1785.
Jane Dudley: This is interesting because Iím going to do research on these (indistinct words) of Alexander and Iím going to read this. Did you read this, Eleanor? ďThe first preacherís name was Fogg. He came in in 1816. (Indistinct words.) baptism by emergence. (Pliney Frost talking at the same time.) The candidates: Mr and Mrs. Samuel Brown, Jacob Stevens, and Miss Ann Lilly. The first marriage in town was between Thomas Bean and Mary Bailey, now Mrs. R. K. Thistlewood.
Woman: Thatís where the Thistlewoods come from.
Jane Dudley: Yes.
Pliney Frost: You want to see a picture of her son?
Woman: Yes. (Indistinct words) named Thistlewood.
Woman: Fogg Hardware is an old firm, isnít it?
Pliney Frost: Um hum.
Woman: You have what?
Jane Dudley: The little house to your right as you come in (indistinct words) is referred to as the Thistlewood house.
Woman: Oh, really.
Jane Dudley: (Indistinct words) Bob Thistlewood lived there, and then they built the one that his mother and he (Indistinct words)
Pliney Frost: I havenít got it with me. Iíve got one at home. I thought I had it with me, but I havenít. Itís home. In fact Iíve got pictures of three generations of that family.
Jane Dudley: Of the Thistlewoods.
Woman: Hereís Ross brothers.
Jane Dudley: I never heard that name before. And, I do too. Itís like Colin Morrison. Jack and I met Colin Morrison, and, we havenít forgotten her name. We liked it so much.
Pliney Frost: By way of identification, Mary Bailey and Thomas Bean were the parents of Mary Ann Frost who was Steve Frostís wife, mother of Thomas B. and Augustus W., Steven D., Horace E., Harry E. (Women talking in background)
Woman: Another good classic name.
Pliney Frost: Augustus Wellington.
Woman: A very impressive name.
Woman: Something to live up to.
Woman: Youíd have to be very dignified with that name.
Woman: The only price I can find - oh, hereís one, menís pants 97 cents. Theyíre repair warranted not to rip.
Woman: Wonderful. Thatís a good deal.
Woman: Ross Brothers, ďyou will be surprised to see what a handsome solid gold watch you can buy about - for 20 and 25 dollars.Ē
Jane Dudley: See when we have - when weíre not into genealogy, we just get our fix from (indistinct word).
Woman: We get a little mercenary.
Jack Dudley: According to Mr. Colby (George Colby in the 1881 Atlas of Washington County), Alexander was first settled in 1811 by Cottel, Bohanon and others.
Jane Dudley: That would be the same as this other piece.
Pliney Frost: Chapman and - when they wrote that book of place names of Maine they used the same thing so apparently thatís about the best information. Annaniah Bohanon in the spring of (indistinct words)
Jane Dudley: At the time of this - way back - -
Pliney Frost: There might be something interesting to you, Jane.
Jane Dudley: (Pliney Frost and Jane Dudley talking at the same time.) Annaniah was 85 years old.
Pliney Frost: (indistinct words) everybody as far as that goes.
Jane Dudley: Did you hear what I said?
Jane Dudley: (laughter and indistinct word) Thereís so much in that (indistinct words)
Pliney Frost: Thatís the first time in my life that I ever knew of a man to get ahead of a woman. I can talk louder than you can.
Jane Dudley: According to this article here, the article was written in 1870 by Annaniah Bohanon and he was 85 years old, so that means he was born in 1765.
Pliney Frost: 1870 and you subtract - -
Jane Dudley: I mean 1765, Iím sorry.
Pliney Frost: I would say 85, wouldnít you. Seventy and fifteen would make 85, so it would be 1885.
Woman: Where was the Episcopal Church?
Pliney Frost: One downtown, I donít remember the name of it.
Jane Dudley: That was an Episcopal at one time.
Woman: Where? In Alexander?
Pliney Frost: It was, always was.
Woman: Itís Methodist, now.
Pliney Frost: Thatís what it was, Methodist Episcopal Church.
Woman: Oh, Methodist Episcopal.
Other Woman: Oh yes.
Jane Dudley: My word. (Indistinct words - several voices at the same time)
Woman: I donít know what that means.
Jane Dudley: I didnít read the Methodist. I was so surprised to see the Episcopal. So, did they used to be together?
Woman: I donít know. I donít know what that means. (Woman talking in back ground) I think Episcopal (indistinct words of another woman) Episcopal means bishop and I guess the Methodists have a - -
Jane Dudley: If it was Episcopal, maybe - the Episcopal Church was quite a wealthy church nationally, isnít it - would come to our rescue (two women talking together)
Woman: No, the Episcopal Church unfortunately isnít wealthy any more.
Other Woman: I have a letter (indistinct words)just before the church was sold out here, we had permission - -
Jane Dudley: Oh, how nice.
Other Woman: The legal word that they had (indistinct words)
Pliney Frost: Could have been. I donít (indistinct words)
Other Woman: (Indistinct words)
Pliney Frost: Yes, I know. (Indistinct words) They wouldnít tell it to anyone?
Other Woman: No, we tried. It was very hard to get that (indistinct words)
Woman: Is it still standing?
Pliney Frost: Yes.
Woman: It hasnít been torn down?
Other Woman: No.
Woman: And, letís see, the school house is still there, too.
Woman: Jane, what year was the Methodist Church built (indistinct words).
Pliney Frost: In 1866. Completed in 1869.
Woman: See, thatís wrong in that book that I had because I got the date from Nettie Hunnewell and she must have got it mixed up with the Grange Hall.
Pliney Frost: What did you use for a date?
(Several people talking at the same time.)
Woman: Whatís this - selling a pew?
Pliney Frost: Thatís the way they got money to build the church. They sold pews.
Woman: Yes, yes.
Woman: You had your own pew.
Pliney Frost: Together with the ground on which it stands. (Woman talking in background)
Woman: You owned right down to the ground, huh?
Woman: What date did you say that was, Pliney? The Methodist Church, what date was that?
Pliney Frost: 1866, they begun it.
Jane Dudley: The writer using said pew (indistinct words)
Pliney Frost: They finished it I think in January 1869.
Jane Dudley: Also the lot of land on which it is built.
Woman: Huh, (indistinct word) Isnít that neat. Sounds positively pagan.
Woman: There must have been a formal way - legal way or something that they could in the small print.
Woman: Is that for Christmas, Ellie, that mitten or sock that you are knitting?
Ellie: (Indistinct words)
Pliney Frost: The building of the church in Alexander began in 1866 and was completed January 11, 1869.
Woman talking in background
Woman: (Indistinct words) 1875, but thatís not right, is it. 1869. 1869. And, what was that you said, 1869?
Pliney Frost: Um.
Woman: (Indistinct words)
Jane Dudley: Oh, look at the picture. Isnít it lovely. And the grange wasnít there. Whereís the grange? Itís in this picture. Oh, who took the last picture?
Pliney Frost: Brenda Hunnewell.
Woman: Thatís a beauty.
Woman: Itís a good shot.
Jane Dudley: (Indistinct words) tower with all the whatever you call it on the side.
Pliney Frost: That is the only original deed that I know of in existence. Thereís could be more, but - -
(Several voices talking at the same time.)
Woman: Is this the Alexander Church?
Woman: Yes. (Indistinct words spoken by another woman.)
Woman: This is very nice. This is a sharp picture. (Several people talking at the same time.)
Woman: That is beautiful.
Jane Dudley: Ellen, hereís someone maybe who will develop black and white prints for you.
Woman: Who is it. (Other women talking at the same time.)
Pliney Frost: Just beyond the Stagecoach Motel on the same side.
Woman: (Other women talking at the same time.) On the same side as the Stagecoach Motel?
Pliney Frost: Damn! Iíll trouble you for another cup of coffee.
Jane Dudley: I forgot all about you and your coffee.
Woman: Oh, this is the way it was originally.
Other Woman: Isnít that beautiful?
Ruth (Ferguson) Dwelley: This is the way it looked when I came here, and the church (unintelligible because other woman talking at the same time.) I taught Sunday School there in 1931. I taught Elbridge MacArthur. (This is likely to have been Elbridge M., brother of Ethel M. Wallace.) (Several women talking and laughing at the same time.)
Woman: Would you like a little suet pudding, Pliney?
Woman: (Unintelligible words) Pliney, were you in my class?
Pliney Frost: I had a cup right here. You didnít need to dirty another one.
Jane Dudley: Well, I didnít know where it was.
Woman: You used to attend church.
Pliney Frost: I attended church, but I never went to Sunday School if I could get away with it. I hated school with a passion.
Woman: I can remember that you did. I can remember that Elbridge was there, Ethel. I had 14 (unitelligible words)
Pliney Frost: Maybe I might say that their parents had more control over them than the people that looked after me had over me.
Woman: I had 14 in that class.
Woman: Good Heavens.
Other Woman: Thatís a regular mob.
(Women talking in background)
Woman: I had quite a few of the Perkins boys. Remember them?
Pliney Frost: Nolandís boys?
Woman: Yes, I had Francis and Maurice, Ellwood. In fact Ellwood came to see me just a short while ago. He said he could remember when he was in that class.
Man: You cold?
Pliney Frost: Fireman gone on a strike or something?
Woman: (Indistinct words) got your woolies on. I donít know.
Woman: That was very interesting.
Woman: Imagine that. Isnít that (indistinct word)
Woman: Iím glad I came, Pliney. I wouldnít miss this for anything.
Woman: Weíre glad Pliney came.
Woman: Weíre glad you came.
Woman: Plineyís stories - -
Pliney Frost: Youíre still buttoning that wrong.
Jane Dudley: I still need someone to button me up.
Woman: What on earth?
Woman: I could tie my shoe lace over it would help.
Woman: Isnít it amazing how bare it is.
Pliney Frost: Youíre insisting on doing it wrong.
Woman: Jane, First you have to get to the bottom. (Other woman laughs and says something indistinct.) Line up the bottom. Line up your bottom.
Woman: Last two, three - finally - that must be right.
Woman: What a change.
Woman: Itís so pretty. That tower.
Woman: I can understand now why Donald Frost is so sentimental about the church because it was Thomas Frost that gave them that land, was it, or - -
Pliney Frost: He just bought a pew. Townsend donated land.
Woman: Oh, this is for pews.
Woman: Townsend was across the street when it - -
Pliney Frost: I think probably more of Donaldís sentimentality, if he has any, comes from the fact that his grandfather was one of the ministers of the church.
Woman: Oh. (Two or three women speaking - cannot be understood)
Woman: But, they did have a pew in the church, is that right?
Pliney Frost: In fact they owned two of them.
Woman: Some day you should have that framed. You could have the deed and the two pictures put in the same frame.
Pliney Frost: I thought of that. If I framed one tenth of the pictures that I could come up with - -
Woman: Youís have nowhere to hang them.
Woman: You could lend them to us for our building. (Women talking in the background.)
Woman: You could have a traveling art show, you know. We could have one hanging one month and then the next.
Woman: Well, you have to have it according to that says whoís this - with the picture.
Woman: Oh, what a good idea.
Woman: And, have people that are (other woman starts talking at the same time and the rest of this sentence canít be understood)
Woman: All the ones we canít identify.
Woman: Yes, have one up a week or a month and have - so everybody can (indistinct words)
Woman: Like hanging in the post office (several women talking and laughing - canít be understood - Pliney Frost says a few words that canít be understood)
Woman: The church thing - I think I did, yes.
Woman: (Indistinct word) this article. Iíd never known that was called Stephensonís farm, though before. (Few indistinct words) Stephensons must have sold it to (indistinct name)
Woman: This first Stephenson up here, is he (Several people talking at the same time - canít be understood)
Pliney Frost: (Several people talking at the same time) but I donít know. See, John Goddardís wife (several people talking at the same time.) Not John Goddardís wife, John Goddardís mother. (Several people talking at the same time.) Jedediah Dwelly married a Stephenson. (Several people talking at the same time.)
Woman: (Several people talking at the same time.) The Stephenson farm was settled in 1816, a grist mill in 1820. To be recorded.
Pliney Frost: I would suspect that they were both right on the stream there. I donít know.
Woman: (Indistinct words) Stephenson farm. (Indistinct words) John Dwelly built that, I remember.
Woman: Where is that?
Woman: Right where the Hatfield place is now. That was the old Dwelly homestead.
Pliney Frost: The mill is burned, along, oh what, 1960 somewhere around there.
Woman: About 1960. At one time they employed two crews. They had a day crew and a night crew.
Woman: That was before the house was built?
Woman: No, (several people talking at the same time)
Pliney Frost: Hey, Jack, you want to look that up. I donít know as youíre interested in Alexander, but (several people talking at once) whatís long ago and far away.
Woman: thatís the last mill (Several people speaking at the same time.) and here, in this article it mentions it being a saw mill and later a grist mill. And then when (indistinguishable words) father owned it, it was a saw mill and they employed - at one time there were 16 I think that worked at that mill and they had two shifts, a day shift and a night shift.
Woman: But, the farmers came first, I gather. Is that right?
Woman: The what?
Woman: Farming came first.
Pliney Frost: Well, in Alexander farming came first (several people talking at the same time) well, I suppose, no in 1816 they built the mill so that was when the town was first being settled.
Woman: They would (indistinct word) the trees first - -
Woman: First they would clear the land, yes. So it would be a natural -
Woman: That picture of the church there.
Woman: They cleared it pretty well.
Woman: The saw mill was built in 1816 and that would be eleven years before the town was incorporated.
Pliney Frost: Nine. Nine years.
Woman: Iím sorry. Sorry. Iím bad at arithmetic. (Indistinguishable words) Jack says that Pliney is (indistinct words)
Woman: (Two women talking at the same time)
Pliney Frost: Did you know that in 1900 Alexander had more population than Baileyville.
Woman: I was going to ask about that. How many people were there? (Other woman talking in the background)
Pliney Frost: Approximately 500.
Woman: The first settler that came up here was at Baileyville. What do you call squatter or yes - -
Pliney Frost: Well, Iím not sure that he was in Baileyville. Bohanon, he went from - according to Bailey, he went from Alexander to Baileyville. He settled first in Alexander and then went to Baileyville, and in this book that he wrote here it says he was in Calais, first settled in Alexander and then later on he went to Baileyville. But, he says now in that article that he always lived in Alexander, didnít he? Maybe he didnít say it. Iíll find where he began.
Woman: The first tree felled and the first cabin made in Township Number 16, now Alexander, was in the summer of 1810 by William Connie and Solomon Perkins on the farm now occupied by John Gooch. During the year 1811 Annaniah Bohanon, William Crockett, Elias Spring and others settled in different parts of the township. Thatís where we get Spring Hill from. Thatís the Spring.
Woman: Oh. (Other people talking at the same time.)
Woman: Landrys on the Cooper Road. No - yes, on the Cooper Road.
Pliney Frost: From Doris (Dwelley) Edgerlyís all the way down to Merle Knowles you might say.
Woman: That is Spring Hill.
Woman: We were going to say (indistinct word) and I had asked Pliney if he had heard of Spring Hill and I (mumbled words) about Laneís Hill and something about (indistinct words) something about the name Spring Place (indistinct words)
Woman: Where did you find that about that Laneís Hill?
Woman: (Indistinct words)
Woman: Ellie lives on Laneís Hill and (indistinct words)
Woman: Youíre on Laneís - - Iím slowly learning the - - (indistinct words) Jay Hill around here.
Woman: Iíd like to ask you about a cup of coffee if thatís not - -
Pliney Frost: Well Jane can just make up a cup of coffee if you want her to. (Woman talking in the background)
Woman: That would be great.
Woman: (Woman talking in the background) You havenít kept these records for nothing, Pliney. (Indistinct words)
Pliney Frost: Kayeís so interested. Thereís the records of the activities of the (indistinct word) from 1818 to 1896.
Kaye: Oh, wonderful. I am interested.
Pliney Frost: As it pertains to Alexander and some of the surrounding towns - giving the names of the ministers and their assistants and so on and so forth.
Woman: My, Kaye, Iím here for the night.
Kaye: Well, I think this would be a yearís study - a yearís study.
Woman: How did your great grandmother happen to start keeping records? Have you any idea whether she wrote - did she ever write anything down?
Pliney Frost: The only thing that I can tell you that they were quite fond of genealogy. They kept a fairly good record of the tribe.
Woman: Have you got a good family bible of all the - -
Pliney Frost: No. No bible at all with a record in it. I donít mean there isnít any bibles in the house but thereís no family record.
Woman: They didnít keep a baptismal record.
Pliney Frost: No.
Woman: May I read this to you? The residents of Alexander be required to raise for our (indistinct words) in Alexander $150.00 for the presiding elder, $16.00 for the (indistinct words)
Woman: Eighteen dollars.
Woman: The total amount the church expects each year is $234.00. Fifty dollars is provided for the rank and (indistinct words) need and care. $180.00 for the (indistinct words) Fifteen dollars (indistinct words) each month. If weíre not ready (Indistinct words) not sure of the coming year.
Woman: (Indistinct words) the scrapbook she has on all the Sunday School classes at the little society they had with (indistinct words)
Woman: Theyíve got all these pictures and all these souvenirs.
Woman: Who has (indistinct words)
Woman: Ruth, all done so neatly. (Noise on tape as if machine turned off and back on.) on the religious life of this community. Weíve got plenty of records in here.
Woman: Roberta does that, too. Roberta has the same thing. Roberta Wheaton, the president. (Woman talking in background) Roberta Carle. Sheís Robert Carleís daughter. (Other women talking in the background.)
Pliney Frost: Oh, yes, yes. I had to stop and think who she was.
Woman: Sheís a real historian. Sheís (indistinct words) (Other women talking in the background.)
Pliney Frost: Which one of the Wheatonís was it that she was married to, or is married to?
Woman: The one that owned the store.
Pliney Frost: I know. Iím trying to think of his name.
Woman: Sheís not married to him any more.
Pliney Frost: Theyíre divorced now.
Woman: Yes, they have been quite a while.
Jane Dudley: Jack, what was the name of the Wheaton who owned the store in Princeton? What was his first name?
Pliney Frost: The old McKechnie store. I know it just as well as can be, but I canít think of it.
Jack Dudley: It wasnít Arthur?
Pliney Frost: Yes, or was Arthur the one that was in Grand Lake? One of them had a store in Grand Lake and the other one in Princeton. Bob had the filling station.
Woman: It wasnít Robert?
Pliney Frost: No, it wasnít Robert. Robert married Betty Dooley.
Jack Dudley: (Indistinct words)
Pliney Frost: Arthur. I think it was Arthur. I think it was Arthur that had the store in Princeton. Basil got killed.
Jack Dudley: (Indistinct words) the old man. Arthur (Women talking at the same time. Cannot understand any of them.) Wayland was his son. (More indistinct words as women continued talking, too.)
Woman: Jane, I think Iíd better go, looking at the way things are out there.
Jane Dudley: Itís getting a little thicker. I wish our dog was at home.
Woman: Where is it?
Jane Dudley: Well, heís always here, but Jack said he saw a lot of dog tracks right next door, you know, up in the road here, and our dog isnít here, so we assume Murtaughís dogs came over and ours followed - - (indistinct words - just enough to hear that they are discussing dogs)
Woman: What happened to Karenís suit against Umrtaughs?
Jane Dudley: He had to pay for it.
Woman: Oh, so - -
Jane Dudley: They made him pay $25.00.
Woman: But thereís no improvement.
Jane Dudley: Yes, there is improvement, but thereís still room for improvement. Itís kind of hard. You canít expect your dog to stay in the yard if another dog comes in and runs out. (Indistinct words)
Man: (Indistinct words)
Jane Dudley: Jack, Iím going to put the typewriter around here and Iím going to copy that. (Several people talking at the same time.)
Pliney Frost: You can take that newspaper clipping and bring it down tomorrow, Jane, if you want to, or the next day. I donít care.
Jane Dudley: As soon as weíre out. If we get snowed in, I couldnít (indistinct words.) the only reason I wouldnít come. You can be sure of it. Iím honored. I wouldnít let anyone have it if it were mine.
Pliney Frost: I donít want to lose it.
Jane Dudley: Oh, certainly not.
Pliney Frost: (Indistinct words) That was probably the most famous family that ever lived in Alexander.
Jane Dudley: Who was that, Pliney?
Pliney Frost: Townsends. Townsends.
Jane Dudley: Theyíre the ones with the beautiful house.
Pliney Frost: Thatís the two story house right across from the Grange Hall.
Jane Dudley: Isnít that (indistinct name) name George and Emmanuel - Manley Townsend. And, sheís the one you were telling me about who lived in Calais where Dr. Meyerís office is now. (Several people talking in the background.)
Pliney Frost: Her father.
Jane Dudley: Yes, her father.
Pliney Frost: So Iíve always been told. You know anything about it (indistinct word)
Jack Dudley: I donít know what his name was. He ran a bar-room at one time. (Several people talking in the background)
Pliney Frost: His daughter married Manley B. Townsend, and they had several children and one of them was Dr. Townsend. You remember him? Dr. George Townsend. You remember of him.
Jack Dudley: I remember the name.
Pliney Frost: That, and another son that was a Methodist minister, Abner. They had another son, Thomas (indistinct words due to women talking at the same time.)
Jane Dudley: This is interesting, Pliney. (Several women continue talking at the same time and the tape ends.)